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Rob Ross
Member

Posts: 196
Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/5/2012 8:25:32 PM
Can we all agree on how the Manufacturer's Challenge went down with a whimper this year. By Friday noon we had all given up on it - well given up hope of catching the leader.

Did anyone investigate how awesome Jason Cram was at the games being selected for the Manufacturer's Challenge? I just looked it up and found:

LAZARIAN
Jason Cram
Rank - 1 - WORLD RECORD HOLDER??? Really?
Score - 382,785
Date - May 29 2006

BLUEPRINT
Jason Cram
Rank - 6
Score - 79,550
Date - Jun 04 2006

SUPER PACMAN
No Tournament Scores Listed On TG

KOZMIK KROOZR
Jason Cram
Rank - 1 - WORLD RECORD HOLDER ---- AGAIN!!!!
Score - 439,300
Date - Jan 01 2007

WACKO
Jason Cram
Rank - 5
Score - 96,700
Date - Nov 14 2007

Oh the humanity!


 
lakeman421
Member

Posts: 157
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/5/2012 8:56:56 PM
Yeah as I have said before this should all be for fun. It does make it less fun on this side of the competition when it is over halfway through the second day.


 
moneill139
Member

Posts: 67
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/5/2012 9:06:00 PM
@Lakeman. The manufacturers challenge was won 3 weeks prior when they were all practicing those exact games at Funspot. ACAM employee huddled right next to them.


 
falcor781
Member

Posts: 17
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/5/2012 9:09:06 PM
moneill001 Wrote:
@Lakeman. The manufacturers challenge was won 3 weeks prior when they were all practicing those exact games at Funspot. ACAM employee huddled right next to them.

A lot the regulars started playing Wacko when it was released on the floor months ago (it appeared sometime before BotA which was back in April, I think).


 
moneill139
Member

Posts: 67
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/5/2012 9:16:50 PM
@falcor. All well and good but a few of us really know what went down.


 
falcor781
Member

Posts: 17
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/5/2012 9:22:11 PM
moneill001 Wrote:
@falcor. All well and good but a few of us really know what went down.

Which is.....


 
Robert
Member

Posts: 116
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/5/2012 10:52:51 PM
There are probably plus or minus ten major manufacturers in the ACAM collection, including Atari, Stern, Bally/Midway, Konami, Nintendo, Data East, Exidy, Williams, Centuri and others.

Within each manufacturer, I am sure that there is one or more player who tends to excel on those titles in particular. This is no different than in tennis where some players excel on grass, some on clay, etc. With so many talented players, some of whom have been playing these 30+ year old titles for several decades, it is HIGHLY likely that no matter what manufacturer is chosen, someone in attendance will have an edge within that manufacturer's roster of titles at ACAM. Just stating that as a matter of probability.

Same applies even moreso in pinball, to some extent, as the difference in manufacturer means little...they are all basically a metal ball with flippers, ramps and targets, in a nutshell.

Same applies to shooting games (Cheyenne, Chiller, Crossbow, etc)...driving games (Pole Position I & II, Final Lap, Hard Drivin, Outrun, etc), fighting games (Mortal Kombat, Killer Instinct, Primal Rage, etc) and vertical shooters (1942, Sky Shark, Tiger Heli, 1943, etc).

Whether a manufacturer or a genre, someone in attendance is likely to hold that edge coming into the mix as there are that many good and overall excellent players in attendance, never mind genre specialists, There is nothing that "went down"...that is a baseless and stupid statement to make. Especially considering that the manufacturer was potentially going to be Atari at some point in the closing days until that did not work out as planned, so another manufacturer was selected...it just happened to be the one that it was.

Bottom line is never assume...watch this if you need to learn why... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfvTwv5o1Qs


 
Rob Ross
Member

Posts: 196
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/6/2012 8:23:42 AM
Robert Wrote:
There are probably plus or minus ten major manufacturers in the ACAM collection, including Atari, Stern, Bally/Midway, Konami, Nintendo, Data East, Exidy, Williams, Centuri and others.

Within each manufacturer, I am sure that there is one or more player who tends to excel on those titles in particular. This is no different than in tennis where some players excel on grass, some on clay, etc. With so many talented players, some of whom have been playing these 30+ year old titles for several decades, it is HIGHLY likely that no matter what manufacturer is chosen, someone in attendance will have an edge within that manufacturer's roster of titles at ACAM. Just stating that as a matter of probability.

Same applies even moreso in pinball, to some extent, as the difference in manufacturer means little...they are all basically a metal ball with flippers, ramps and targets, in a nutshell.

Same applies to shooting games (Cheyenne, Chiller, Crossbow, etc)...driving games (Pole Position I & II, Final Lap, Hard Drivin, Outrun, etc), fighting games (Mortal Kombat, Killer Instinct, Primal Rage, etc) and vertical shooters (1942, Sky Shark, Tiger Heli, 1943, etc).

Whether a manufacturer or a genre, someone in attendance is likely to hold that edge coming into the mix as there are that many good and overall excellent players in attendance, never mind genre specialists, There is nothing that "went down"...that is a baseless and stupid statement to make. Especially considering that the manufacturer was potentially going to be Atari at some point in the closing days until that did not work out as planned, so another manufacturer was selected...it just happened to be the one that it was.

Bottom line is never assume...watch this if you need to learn why... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfvTwv5o1Qs

If it's highly likely someone will have an edge in the Manu Challenge, why should all of us just hand our $60 over to that person? So next year they put in games that another top player has records on and like sheep we fork over the cash? This is exactly the reason why the pros and amateurs need separate divisions.

And when I wrote "went down" I wasn't implying anything. I could have used the words "happened" or "occurred". When Mike said "went down" I believe he's referring to a rumor that was floating around about a hand full of top players who saw thee list of games in the tournament and were seen practicing those games in the days leading up to the event. These players weren't playing TX1 or Juno First or Tutankham. They were all sitting at games that made it into the event. Lucky guesses on their part? Coincidence? I don't expect anyone to step forward and admit to it....I do expect to now be attacked for being the messenger of this rumor even though I'm not the source of the info behind it. Personally, I hope it's not true.






 
Steve W
Member

Posts: 157
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/6/2012 3:37:44 PM
Rob Ross Wrote:
These players weren't playing TX1 or Juno First or Tutankham.

Juno First has no dip switch setting to eliminate free lives making the game quite marathonable for players, you will never see this game in a tourney for that reason IMO. There are a few Tutankham players among those in attendance last week that would have lapped the field on it, TX1 seems like it would take up too much space in the tourney area. If I were interested in winning a tournament or overdelivering in one, my first order of business would be to look at the aurcade db for ACAM and automatically rule out the games that are marathonable. This can be done by referencing the range of historical scores in conjunction with dip switch setting examination for lives control. It's work, but a few seem to be very interested in the outcome of such things. I like beer, personally.


 
falcor781
Member

Posts: 17
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/6/2012 3:39:15 PM
Rob Ross Wrote:
And when I wrote "went down" I wasn't implying anything. I could have used the words "happened" or "occurred". When Mike said "went down" I believe he's referring to a rumor that was floating around about a hand full of top players who saw thee list of games in the tournament and were seen practicing those games in the days leading up to the event. These players weren't playing TX1 or Juno First or Tutankham. They were all sitting at games that made it into the event. Lucky guesses on their part? Coincidence? I don't expect anyone to step forward and admit to it....I do expect to now be attacked for being the messenger of this rumor even though I'm not the source of the info behind it. Personally, I hope it's not true.

Nobody saw the list of games. It's about as guarded a secret as one can get, and furthermore, Gary et al. don't say anything because they do want everyone to have a shot at the money.

Being in that group, I can tell you personally that I had zero idea what would be chosen. However, there were observations I picked up along the way that increased the probabilities of possible tourney games:

(1) I scope out games that haven't been in a tourney since 2005 (when I started coming to events). Frisky Tom, Gun.Smoke, and The End made my list (though I learned later The End was in before).
(2) I predicted Life Force would be in it since they had the cab at PAX East (I saw a pic of it on ACAM's facebook page) and it didn't make its way onto the floor.
(3) I always predict that any games added to the floor could appear in the tournament. This includes Space Fury, Kosmik, Wacko, Gaplus, Gimme a Break, Space Dungeon, and Discs of Tron.
(4) I heard FS picked up other games in another thread (namely Mad Planets) that weren't on the floor. These were also prime candidates.
(5) I saw that Lazarian got a new monitor on Wednesday -- a monitor which has been not too good for as long as I can remember
(6) I noticed that many of the games which were added to the floor and Lazarian had something in common: they were all Bally games.

In other words, I did some sleuthing, paid attention, and hypothesized. I then practiced ahead of time at home, and before the tourney based on this info. Was there any guarantee? Nope - none whatsoever. And, I wasn't concerned, persay either, since I liked a lot of those games. I got to play a fun game and if it's in the tourney, then great.

I never would've guessed in a million years Depthcharge, Mr. Do's Wild Ride and Buggy Challenge would've been in it. I also had never heard of Minefield, Armored Car or Space Encounters prior to seeing them on Thursday morning.

So, nothing "went down" as far as I know. And I believe I would've known had something been going down. I personally just made some educated guesses and hoped for the best. This year it worked out; other years it definitely has not.


 
Rob Ross
Member

Posts: 196
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/6/2012 5:12:08 PM
@Steve W
I was simply listing games at random to make a point. Don't get too hooked on that....although thank you for the excellent explanation on all 3 games. Yes, TX1 is hugemungous, but damn it would be awesome to have in the tourney.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lemme try again - Guys weren't playing Cliff Hanger, Super Sprint, Frogger, Lunar Lander, Death Race.

The greater point was how some of us heard a group of top players had the list of the games and practiced up. I don't doubt the extensive lengths falcor went to with his 6 point plan above to practice, however how do you explain MANY players all practicing the same tourneybound games? Did everyone make great guesses based on monitor repairs, PAX East, games not used since 2005, etc?

Guess the rumor starter lied to us...for some unknown reason.


 
falcor781
Member

Posts: 17
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/6/2012 5:46:17 PM
Rob Ross Wrote:
@Steve W
I was simply listing games at random to make a point. Don't get too hooked on that....although thank you for the excellent explanation on all 3 games. Yes, TX1 is hugemungous, but damn it would be awesome to have in the tourney.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lemme try again - Guys weren't playing Cliff Hanger, Super Sprint, Frogger, Lunar Lander, Death Race.

The greater point was how some of us heard a group of top players had the list of the games and practiced up. I don't doubt the extensive lengths falcor went to with his 6 point plan above to practice, however how do you explain MANY players all practicing the same tourneybound games? Did everyone make great guesses based on monitor repairs, PAX East, games not used since 2005, etc?

We are all friends and share these hypotheses with each other.


 
Robert
Member

Posts: 116
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/6/2012 6:16:19 PM
Cliff Hanger, Super Sprint, Frogger, Lunar Lander, Death Race.


Cliff Hanger - not sure if ACAM would ever "mix" a Daphne-based title with an arcade classic in the main event...unless the entire manny challenge was all laser disc titles (running on Daphne)

Super Sprint - just did not make the cut. Neither did "Hard Drivin'"...nor "Star Wars"...nor a lot of titles

Frogger - possibly a duration issue here. One, possibly two players if both attend and compete can take this one the entire day by themselves. Not exactly fair to the other 96 players

Lunar Lander - unsure if the controls were working properly, but there could be an issue with monitoring extra coin insertion (as is the case with "Dragon Spirit", "Xybots" and "Lost Tombs", some more titles that require diligent referee attention else there could be a disparity due to cheating

Death Race - a good choice, I admit, maybe another year as I'd like to see this one myself...just a question of how this title has been holding up. When I was there in November it had an issue on one day. Maybe this one is prone to down-time, who knows...but hopefully a choice for a future event !!


Look, a lot of titles are not selected...I listed some reasons earlier in either this thread or another. Mike Sao Pedro speculated on some inclusions...a logical thing to do. Then again, you could have speculated on "Indiana Jones" and "Star Wars" as they were never event titles, and still have yet to be included...but if you practiced on them you would have done so for naught as far as the tourney goes. So that argument works both ways...you could have the good furtune to pick a title included, or not.


 
drdreaddr
Member

Posts: 13
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/6/2012 6:18:17 PM
I heard a similar suggestion that the locals knew what the games were and were playing mame to get ahead start. I don't care one way or the other but identity needs to be built upon others more substantial accomplishments in life then 30 year old cathode ray tube interfaces with controls and chip boards.

I had fun playing that was my goal not to complain. Nothing will ever be perfect. It cost alot of money to keep the the funspot going the other 361 days of the year when we are not there. Someone should calculate what it would cost just to buy those 15 games and get them shipped to your house to play for 4 days.

Players can play so many games these days, having them at home makes it even easier and with mame they don't have a chance. I learned 12 years ago it doesn't really get any better there will always be something to complain about. I try to focus on the good gaming who ever did and the cool stories people have as to why they play and still play these old games.

I just show up and play from memory or intuition and find it more fun to keep it a hobby not a source of income. dwayne



 
Robert
Member

Posts: 116
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/6/2012 7:20:14 PM
It was suggested that while "Falcor" had a 6-point plan to speculate on possible inclusions. "how do you explain MANY players all practicing the same tourneybound games? Did everyone make great guesses based on monitor repairs, PAX East, games not used since 2005, etc?"

Answer may be quite simple...others watched what he migrated to and followed suit. Others had simiuliar intuition though kept it off the forums. Some may have mad lucky guesses. It can happen.



 
moneill139
Member

Posts: 67
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/6/2012 7:43:26 PM
I forgot thay my sarcasm cannot be interpreted through words.


 
moneill139
Member

Posts: 67
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/6/2012 7:47:29 PM
Lets settle this with a game of lawn darts


 
falcor781
Member

Posts: 17
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/6/2012 7:48:17 PM
moneill001 Wrote:
Lets settle this with a game of lawn darts

And a game of beer.


 
moneill139
Member

Posts: 67
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/6/2012 7:57:33 PM
Only if its not that shitty overpriced funspot beer


 
Rob Ross
Member

Posts: 196
RE: Cram's Manufacturer's Challenge
on 6/6/2012 9:27:44 PM
So people just trusted Michael's intuition and followed him around the arcade playing what he was playing? Really? You are selling that?

Why wasn't someone else's intuition followed? So the guys who are all friends and talk just happened to follow Michael and he was right? Why didn't they follow what Nelson thought or Mcallister thought or even what I was posting on this forum?

Robert, is it at all possible that the list leaked out and cheating occurred? Or is that not even a consideration?

At the very least the people running next year's event need to be able to change games at the last minute. If the Manufacturer's Challenge can go from Atari to Bally quickly, why can't Main Tourney games be switched if pros are making prophetic guesses and are seen playing Life Force, Depthcharge, etc?


 
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